Former President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, detained since April 2018 in Curitiba, for the first time interrupted his silence with a judge's authorization on Friday's exclusive interview with EL PAÍS and the newspaper About me. It is ready to talk. And talk a lot. Vigorous, he moves by hand, makes jokes, metaphors, irony, and uses his two hours to return. "Imagine if Bolsonaro's militia were friends of my family." Considering that the Supreme Court reduced the penalty for passive corruption and money laundering in the Guarujá Triple, Lula believes that he can be acquitted. But he says he is not afraid to die in prison.
The interview is accompanied by three armed policemen. One is Jorge Chastalo Filho. From time to time, he looks at Lulu and follows what the former president says. It seems to draw attention. He then looked at the other members of the room: journalists, Lula's lawyers, and Franklin Martin, former minister of the Lula government's secretariat for communication. Chastalo is the agent who communicates most with the former president while he is in his "room" where he reads the content of his earned pens from visits he receives every week. This week was the turn of the Italian sociologist Domenico Demasi.
Question. The Lord's arrest was a historic day. Who went through your head when you were arrested and guided?
Answer. Throughout the process, I was always convinced that I had the main goal that would come to me. This was evident in all the statements, reminding you that the press depicts: arrested anyway, will arrive in Lula. Arrested sican, you get to Lulu: "You know Lulu, you're a friend of Lula, you've done something … all." I knew it because it was reflected in the press, people said it. He knew it because the lawyer was talking to the lawyer. It was suspected that the goal was to get to me. I had PT friends who didn't like it when I said they would come to me and then walk to punish PT. When the main goal became clear, many people thought I should leave Brazil so I would have to go to the embassy that I should flee. I realized that my place is here. I have so many obsessions to unmask [Sergio] I live by losing [Deltan] Dallagnol and his gang and those who condemned me will be imprisoned for a hundred years, but I will not change my respect for my freedom. I want to taste the paid farce. I want to prove it. In the US Department of Justice there is a prosecutor's testimony with a recorded film, and now it is even worse by creating Children's Hope Foundation from Petrobras to build a foundation for it. Out of 6.8 billion Odebrecht and out, I don't know how many other things. I have an obsession, you know I have no hate, I don't worry, because at my age, when we hate people, we die. Since I want to live up to 120 years because I think I am a man born to go to 120, I work hard to show my innocence and the village that was created. That's why I came here quietly.
On this day there was a union between those who wanted me to come and those who did not. And I made a decision. I said, I go, I go there. I will not wait until they come to me, I go to them because I want to be trapped near Moro. Moro went out of here. But I want to stay close because I have to prove my innocence.
P. You can stay here forever. However, do you think you have made the right decision?
R. It would be again.
P. Ever thought you could stay here forever?
R. No problem. I'm sure I sleep with my conscience every day. I'm sure Dallagnol hasn't slept and Moro is overnight. And those TRF-4 judges who didn't even consider the sentence. They made an agreement, it was better if only one had read and said, "everyone is the same here". So I want, honestly. Who is the 73-year-old who built the life I built in this country, which established the relationships I created, which made the government that I do in this country, which regained the pride and self-esteem of the Brazilian people as me, to deliver. They know here is stubborn Pernambuco. I always say who who was born in Pernambuco and death from hunger, until the age of five is nothing more. Do you think I don't want to be home? I would like to be home with my wife, my children, grandchildren, my comrades. But I do not doubt because I want to get out of here with my head, which was high when I came. Innocent. And I can only do it if I have the courage and the struggle for it.
P. Recently Minister [da Economia] Paulo Guedes said you had not committed any crime that he hadn't been stolen. The Bolsonaro Minister acknowledged this. Then [ministro do Supremo] Marco Aurélio de Mello recently said he did not see evidence of crime in the Guarujá Triple. And Mauricio Dieter, one of the biggest criminals, said there were no major crimes. Do you think that by returning the money your woman paid for this triplex [decisão da Justiça desta quinta]Are you trying to get his excuse? Do you believe that?
There will be a day when people who appreciate me will be worried about the file, not the newspaper title
R. Incredible, I believe. And I continue with "Lulinha Peace and Love". I believe in building a better world in the world of justice. There will be a day when people who appreciate me will be worried about the file, the case file, and not The news, with magazine covers, not with fake news. People will act as judges of the Supreme Court, the only one we cannot turn to. And you've already taken a very important decision. This court, for example, voted for stem cells against a good part of the Catholic Church. Vote for Raposa Serra do Sol's reserve against strong rice in Roraima. The same court voted for a civil union against all evangelical prejudices, quotas for black people to enter [na universidade]. She has already shown her courage and behavior. In my case, the only thing I want is to vote on the file. I do not ask anyone good. I want people to be able to appreciate the function of evidence by God. I'm sure Moro is sure. If people do not recognize now, the day they will be recognized. He's sure I'm innocent. Dallagnol is definitely a liar. And he lied about me. I am here, my dear, to seek justice to prove my innocence, but I am much more concerned about what is happening with the Brazilian people. Because I can fight, but people can't always.
P. The Lord during this year went through two moments of sadness, which was his brother's death and then his grandson, Arthur. What do you think after you live, what remains of your life?
R. These two moments were the most serious. I could include a member loss as [ex-deputado] Sigmaring Seixas, who was my companion for decades and decades. And the death of my brother Vava. Vavá is like a father to the whole family. And my grandson's death was one thing that was actually no, no, no … [pausa e chora]. I sometimes think I would die so much easier. Since I have lived for 73 years, I could die and let my grandson live. But it's not true. It's not just the moments that make you sad, you know? I am a man who is trying to be cheerful, I work hard to overcome this hate question, it is deeply injured. When I see these people who condemned me on television, knowing that they are liars, knowing that they have created a story, this is the story of Powerpoint from Dallagnola … even his grandson won't believe it. This ignorant messianism, you know? I have a lot of sadness here. But the one who lives there and what they need to know, I have a commitment to this country, I have a commitment to these people. I have an obsession with what is happening now, [essa] obsession with destroying national sovereignty, destroying jobs to add trillion [o ministro Paulo Guedes disse que a reforma da Previdência ia economizar um trilhão de reais]? At the expense of pensioners? If they read something, if they were talking, they would know that this semi-educated citizen, the fourth degree, the mechanical turning course, had added three hundred and seventy billion dollars in reserves [internacionais] that after 4 times the dollar gives more than one trillion and two hundred without causing any harm to any Brazilian. If they want to join a trillion, they have a secret formula: put people in the Union budget, second, create employment. Third, create credit for people. "Oh, but the people owe it? Tá." Take the people's debt penduricalho, and it only costs the main amount of the bank and you will understand that people can buy again. people, trillion? Guedes needed shame.
P. There's a group of militants who say good morning, good afternoon and good evening. Do you hear this cry? How is it for you?
R. I listen every day. When they have activities, they slightly improve the sound of the car, I listen to the speech from. I do not know honestly how one day I can thank these people. There are people who are here just since I arrived here, I will be eternally grateful. I don't know if it has ever happened in history with anyone, but I don't know what to do to thank you. I told everyone that the police definitely have their own rules, my people have rules. But when I leave here, I want to go on foot and go there in the middle. The first cachaça I want to take with me. And toast.
P. His party lost elections last year, and the ultimate power comes to power by voting for many voters who were PT. How do you rate this election right, which was so grateful to your administration?
R. All this will be relativized, because one of the things I forgot to mention is one of the circumstances that came to me because there was no lawyer at the time who did not guarantee that I would be a subcommittee. Many lawyers had the conviction that it would not be possible to remove my candidacy, even condemning me to run a sub judice. And I was sure and I was very proud to win the election from the chain. It is important to remember that here I increased 16 points [preso em Curitiba], unable to speak. So when the minister [do Supremo Luís Roberto] Barroso did this crazy thing that I had to sign a letter saying: [o Fernando] Haddad was a candidate, there I felt we were taking the risk, because casting votes is not something simple, it is not automatic, it takes time. We had atypical elections in Brazil. Let's be open. Role of role fake news During the campaign, the number of melons in the campaign robotization on the Internet was a crazy thing. And then the lack of sensitivity of the left sector to unite. The case was so mad that Marina Silva, who was almost president in 2014, had 1% of the vote. I've never seen people with such hate in the streets. I went to the football stadium a lot. Everyone knows I'm Corinthian, I was with Palmeirense, Santos, São Paulo … We played, fought. But now it was madness, it was hate. I've been following it, it's all over the world. The policy is indeed demonized, and we will need a very long time for us to take it seriously.
I didn't wait [presidente Jair] Bolsonaro would solve Brazil's problem within four months. He just suggests doing a hundred-day analysis, which has never decided who thinks he can present something in a hundred days, he really didn't learn to sit in his butt chair. And then, with the family to which he is, with the madness that he has … His central enemy, without PT, is also an alternate. I think it's crazy. He continues the attacks on the Members, then tries to please the Members, says he is preparing for the new policy and he is doing it because he is an old politician. The country is subject to indecision. He does not know what to do so far and rules.
P. There was corruption, many things have proved that after this time you criticize yourself? PT errors like PT without you going ahead?
R. Of course, we recognize that we have lost the elections. Now it's important to remember the power of PT. Because, just for me personally, they gave me more than 80 magazines. When I was arrested, I had 80 hours in the National Journal against me. Another 80 hours of recording plus 80 hours of SBT as well as 80 Bandeirantes. And they couldn't destroy me. This means that PT is a very powerful force. PT was not destroyed, it lost elections. It has proved that it is the only party that exists in the country as a political party. The rest is an acronym for election interests at the right time. Who completed PSDB. It was destroyed. So, you see that PT lost the election, I think our governments have to make mistakes, we have to make mistakes …
P. What part of corruption?
R. See, Ayrton Senna has made one mistake and died … She [corrupção] there could have been, but there is evidence. You have corruption, you are investigating, you are accusing, you have proved, and you are condemned. From PT we created all the mechanisms for investigating corruption. It wasn't an opponent, it was us. It wasn't Moro. It was Lula and Dilma, the government of PT, with Marcio Thomas Bastos, Tarso Genro and José Eduardo Cardozo [ministros da Justiça petistas] which created all the mechanisms to guarantee the reinforcement of FP investment through more people and more intelligence, strengthening and independence of the prosecutor's office, the transparency we created and are now over. Transparency made it possible to know the role of the president. Because we wanted transparency, and fighting corruption is a feature of PT. If someone from PT made a mistake, you have to pay. We want to hurry, investigate. At the time he was investigated and tried, he was convicted …
P. I wanted to get in the way of the site, the reform was done and you liked the reform, were there no mistakes?
R. I could agree that never went to this place. So I made the mistake of going to the site. I said, and it has been proven that I heard about this destroyed place on January 15, 2011. And the site had the owner, the owner's chief. Jacob Bittar was my friend, who was 40 years old, he bought a place on his son's check with the Federal Savings Bank, and the police know it. Police investigated. We had policemen and prosecutors who visited the farmhouse, the stone house, the house and even asked the chickens: "Do you know Lulu?" "Do you know whether Lula owns it?" And even chickens have not spoken. Because I didn't have it. If I wanted, I could buy it. If I made the mistake of going to a place that someone asked for and OAS reformed, someone asked and reformed Odebrecht, so let's discuss the ethical issue, not corruption. This is another question. It turns out that the accusation, the abolition of the Dilma and the coup have not been concluded with Lulu in freedom. If I were stuck here and the minimum wage had doubled [as pessoas poderiam falar] "Well, Lula is a bastard, he was arrested and his salary doubled." But no: they have now ended with a real minimum wage increase. If I were here and people would work with a formal contract, but no. Now they have invented the history of green and yellow purses [carteira que trará menos benefícios que o contrato CLT]. No entrepreneur will beat a worker who does not have a greenish-yellow portfolio. These people think people are always stupid to sleep.
I have never seen people with such hate in the streets … Politics is effectively demonized and we will need a very long time to take it seriously
When I spoke to myself, I think, for example, I think I had a serious mistake. I would have been able to regulate the media. In 2009, we had a congress, just Bandeirantes and Rede TV, if I remember my memory, you don't know that no other TV has taken part, many radio stations participated, and in June 2010 we prepared media regulation. Instead of entering the congress because I had elections, I thought, "No, I leave it to the new government." The reason why Wisdom has not come, I do not know. So that's the self-criticism I'm doing. Now ask yourself the following questions: Imagine if everyone in Brazil would criticize themselves. The Brazilian elite must now act on its own. "God damned the way we made so much money in Lula's government? How poor people lived so well? How poor people traveled to Piaui, Sergip, Garanhun, and can't even go by bus now? elections in 2018. It cannot be that this country is governed by this madman who manages the state.
P. Odebrecht admitted that it paid for the destination in Peru in exchange for receiving the contract. Transparency International notes that "Fordism corruption" has occurred with millions of dollars distributed in several countries, and that the Odebrecht scheme was developed with the support of BNDES. The entire global scheme is credited with campaign funding in countries aligned with PT …
R. Who says that?
P. Transparency International …
R. Based on what?
R. Must be read in the newspaper Globe. It may just be. Let me say something. The President of the Republic cannot interfere in any way with the BNDES bureaucracy for lending. BNDES was created to finance the development of Brazil. When Brazil finances state development through BNDES, Brazil exports services, exports engineering, machinery, and sells things. This is an extraordinary benefit for a country that wants to play a role in the world. BNDES is the bureaucracy that the President of the Republic does not decide. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Minister of Finance COFEX and COFIG, who are involved in the Foreign Affairs Minister, take part in the decision-making process. Only those who do not participate are the president. And I support BNDES loans for African and Latin American development. I'm supportive.
P. Do you feel that these entrepreneurs have been abused? They have grown up, become multi-national and then award-winning donations to PT and you …
R. I'm not worried about me. I have asked businessmen to tell who gave me five cents. Lion [Pinheiro] who was arrested here who filed a complaint against me, he spent three years in a case, then changed his speech. My lawyer asked why he said it, and he said, "my lawyer was running me." And what he said, "Lula knew." And now what's proven? OAS spent six million real to pay OAS staff [conforme reclamação em ação trabalhista de um ex-funcionário do grupo], standardize donations. How can I take it seriously? I can not. We will have enough time to investigate to go to the US to find out what the US Department of Justice is interfering with in this investigation. What is American Interest in Petrobras? You know what it is. The most common thing in Brazil is denunciation. I support it to be explained. Everyone knows that when I was president it was against the federal police to investigate and report before the evidence was received. The press is the easiest in the world. When the process comes out, if you have proven that you haven't done anything, you are already doomed. I found this Bolsonaro militia strange. Where is this seven million citizen? That guy who's smart enough to make money? What is his name? [Fabricio] Queiroz. Where's the press that isn't after him? [Continua]
They collaborated: Beatriz Jucá, Gil Alessi, Heloísa Mendonça and Joana Oliveira